RE: [-empyre-] the use in girls coming

[Cristiano Bianchi <cristianobianchi@yahoo.com>]

Yes, Millie. But you don't HAVE to participate in
those lists. While you CAN have a discussion here,
with to prejudice or male oriented discussions.

The same applies to porn, soap operas, role playing
games.

The fact is that the medium allows you to do it.

Kindest,

Cristiano


 --- Millie Niss <men2@columbia.edu> wrote: > Another
issue is that a lot of the net "community,"
> especially the
> noncommercial, "old" internet we all like to praise
> is built around
> typically male interests or male ways of dealing
> with them.  For example,
> there is a lot of community around hacking unix
> kernels, working on PHP
> source development, discussing future Ethernet
> standards, etc. etc.  I don't
> mean to say that any of these thinsg are male, or
> that computer science is
> male, but there is something masculine about the
> particular obsessiveness
> and detailedness of these pursuits.
> 
> I am female and I have studied and read computer
> science stuff.  I USE PHP
> for example.  I am ineterested in making things with
> it (-- I want to build
> a database interface using PHO and Flash that is
> really intuitive an
> graphical, to be used as the front end for a
> database of mental health
> services in NYC for Medicaid benefiuciaries.  If
> there is something that
> that the PHP kanguage can't do that I need for this
> (which I doubt), I;d
> write email to these langauge development people, in
> the hope that maybe
> some future version down the pipeline has what I
> want.  But I am not
> planning on getting involved in a deep discussion
> about the order of the
> arghuments and which ones will be optional in the
> new function will probably
> never exist.
> 
> When I say that thesee fol, the language definitioon
> people , have a
> community, I mean it.  They have web sites, email
> lists, files that they
> pass around.  They know each other on a first name
> basis, across continents.
> They consider each other to be friends, and gain
> social benefit from their
> interchanges, nit just the pleasure of technical
> exchange.
> 
> Thare is no such community around the more feminine
> "big picture" usues of
> the same technilogy-- sure there are newsgroups, but
> nothing focused.  There
> is no place to go to discuss my project in its large
> ideas -0- how to make a
> database not look like a database.  I'm thinking of
> something like Venn
> diagrams that you would select from or draw, I'm not
> sure yet.  Some way of
> visually showing intersecting this data set with
> that one or choosing
> certain data from among your data.  Soething which
> would look fluid, like a
> work of art.  I want to discuss this,  It is a
> feminine concept.  I can only
> discuss whether to use an array of objects or an
> object cointaining an
> array, and not even really that as there is not that
> big a community of
> application developers.  All the community aspects
> are centered around the
> tool itself.
> 
> This seems typically male--  give me a tool and I
> want to buil.  They want
> to study the tool and improve it...
> 
> Of course my whole idea in this post is sexist -- it
> is a comonplace that
> women see the big picture while men see the details
> -- but I think the kind
> of community I have described are af little
> intereste to many women, and
> made early entry to the internet community hard for
> women: where did they
> fit into this world?  Then when the commercial
> services such as AOL moved
> in, they needed to capture female dollars, and you
> get the weird situation
> where more women are using commercial services and
> belong to artificial,
> corporate-organized "communities" whereas men have
> the old internet and its
> descendants.
> 
> Some women, such as myself, entered the net early
> and made do with what
> little there was that served femaie interests (I did
> newsgroups, and spent a
> lot of time on rec.arts.books along with some
> comoputer things and some
> support things) while most non techically educated
> women had no reason to be
> online other than email their non electroinic
> friends, and mostly this
> didn't work because these people had trouble logging
> on and didn't check
> email frequently enough and basically got the short
> shrift.
> 
> Millie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: empyre-admin@imap.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> [mailto:empyre-admin@imap.cofa.unsw.edu.au]On Behalf
> Of Patrick Lichty
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:13 PM
> To: empyre@imap.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] the use in girls coming
> 
> 
> > Exactly. But, in cyberspace, whose hegemony is it?
> A
> > male one? How can that be?
> 
> Commerce, military, governmental.  The forces that
> control the Net, all of
> which are all largely male
> 
> > So, my post was offensive and I'm in the minority
> of
> > offenders,
> 
> To make that statement is to therefore assume that
> you are trying to
> conversely assume the place of the 'oppressed',
> which isn't the case.  I
> would not call your comment offensive, but perhaps
> at issue with some
> perspectives.  Also to call yourself an offender
> assumes that you actually
> did commit an offense, which I also disagree with. 
> You didn't.
> 
> while the initiator is entitled to post
> > provocative meaningless Manifestos we should all
> > worship? Just because it mentions (completely out
> of
> > context) the untouchable FEMINISM?
> 
> Feminism is hardly untouchable or immutable.  It has
> its many threads and
> internal conflicts, such as the conflicts between
> the radical/lesbian
> feminist clade and the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
> feminists.  Both are in
> favor of strong female role models, but many of
> these clades often sate that
> the other aren't 'really feminists' due to their
> positions.  Saying that
> there is only one kind of feminism, and one that is
> beyond criticism is to
> place one's self in a very questionable position, on
> either side.  The
> question of feminism is far more complex than saying
> that there is a gender
> border that is non-porous and non-egotiable, which
> is to say that humanity
> does not find any malleability in terms of gender. 
> That's defninitely not
> the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
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